Time is the most important element of building a relationship from a cold prospect to somebody who’s ready to buy. Since discovering how using live webinars to sell programs increased his price and built his authority, Dave Rogenmoser, co-founder of Proof, says you shouldn’t have time to do anything but live webinars. You need clear off everything else out of your life except for live webinars because when you’re able to connect with people on a live webinar, there are a lot more bonds that happen. If people don’t want to buy what you’re selling, you have no business. Live webinars particularly will give you that opportunity to be able to refine, tweak, and get immediate feedback from the people who are most likely to buy. Dave likewise gives a quick background on Proof, his new software for marketers that helps them increase conversion rate on their funnels.
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Build Authority And Credibility With Ideal Customers with Dave Rogenmoser
I’m excited about having this guest on the show, Dave Rogenmoser. We dove deep about something that isn’t talked about enough with selling your products and services online. Dave has a unique story about how he got started with building his business as an entrepreneur and how he was scrapping away selling his course, trying to get people on in selling his course through organic methods, just private messaging and Facebook group outreach. He talked about how it was wearing him down. When he was able to transition to using a live webinar to sell his programs, he was able to increase his price because of the authority building aspect that happens with a webinar. I’m excited to have him share his story with you about his webinar experience.
Dave and I have been connected with different products that we’re helping each other launch. He’s got a software called Proof. He’s got Entrepreneur’s Alliance. He’s done a bunch of stuff with webinars. Dave, welcome to the show.
This is a lot of fun. Thanks for having me on. I love webinars. Webinars are mostly all of my business. We sell through webinars. It’s fun to be here and chat about it with you.
Dave, why don’t you go and give us a quick introduction, a quick backstory about where you came from in the world of entrepreneurship. Take us through the journey and tell us a little bit about yourself first.
I haven’t been at this for all that long since I started as a full-time entrepreneur. Before that, I was working for a campus ministry at the University of Missouri and I just knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I have been fighting my way through that. It’s a rough drive for anybody that’s in that right now. Keep pressing on, there’s light at the end of the tunnel. Everybody’s been through that. I battled through that. I was doing digital marketing consulting, helping people land websites deals, and taking over Facebook ads for local businesses until I built up a course called 6k Success.
After doing the consulting, I built up this course teaching how I was doing the marketing consulting, growing that business and started selling that. That’s what led me to webinars. In about a year and a half, we’ve done over $1 million with webinar sales. Probably 90% of that is straight webinar sales. My entire business was built on this, who knows where it’ll go for the next ten years. I have no plans to not use webinars to grow my business from here on out. They have been that crucial to me.
I want to take this conversation to value-add and value delivery to anyone’s intended audience for your specific customers. When you created your first course, how were you going about trying to sell it before you discovered webinars?
We had no clue. We spent a long time building out the course, which is mistake number one. I don’t recommend anybody to build out a course until you have some buyers. We spent all this time building this thing out and then when it’s done, we’re like, “How do we launch this thing?” I’m trolling around Facebook groups trying to post my links in places. There’s no fun and you feel shady. I’m getting five opt-ins a day into my funnel and I’m feeling amazing.
There was no predictable way to sell this thing. I had a little bit of an existing audience from a book that I had written. I had maybe 80 people in a Facebook group. I put it in there. I was talking to them about this and asking them about what they wanted in the course and what not. I had no positioning, I had no authority. I’m just this guy with a course and not a whole lot else. We were selling the course for about $500 trying to sell it at that. We’re making a couple sales here and there, but nothing predictable. It was tough work even up to ten sales doing that course of $500 and that all led me to webinars.
What was the name of your course?
It’s called 6k Success. It has the goal of helping people get to $6,000 a month of recurring income.
You built this course. How long did it take you to build the course?
It probably took us two months. Not fully working on it, but it was more of a clasp. It was probably two months of Trello boards and outlines and slides. This thing ended up becoming a behemoth of a course just from all the time we had spent on it.
Talk about your $500 price point. How did you come up with that $500 price point? Let’s start there.
I don’t even know. We just picked it. We were just talking to the people. We knew that we wanted to help them get to $6,000 a month. That’s a significant number and we thought we could do that. We were teaching them how to land $1,500 a month contracts. I was like, “If I could make $1,500, that’s about three times more than $500.” I felt it was a good price to charge them about a third of what their first monthly contract would be.
It’s interesting to talk about pricing. There’s a part of me that wants to write a book about pricing and pricing psychology because for entrepreneurs who are experts and consultants, which is the majority of our audience when they launch their first course, a lot of times they undersell themselves. They put together 75 videos and they build this course and it’s got a ton of value and they are like, “I’m going to sell it for $97.” It’s like, “Why are you doing that to yourself?” You might as well go work a job than selling a $97 product.
For a lot of people, $500 may still be a reach but you were able to sell it. You were able to validate that people wanted it, which is great. You mentioned you didn’t have the predictability, you didn’t have this position of authority. You were doing this very strange outbound marketing approach of trolling the Facebook groups. Talk about now when you decided to increase your price point and talk about the discovery of your first live webinar. When did you decide to do a live webinar?
We raised our price for very practical reasons. It’s the same reason that I give a ton of people that come into our programs where I’m teaching them how to do webinars. It’s the fact that we wanted to run paid traffic and paid traffic costs money. I wanted to run Facebook Ads for the course. I ended up running into a guy who is going to help us build up this course and help us launch it. He’s like, “We’ve got to be doing Facebook Ads and we’ve got to be paying for it. No trolling the Facebook groups.”People that are going to buy are people who already know how to build funnels. Click To Tweet
In order to do that, we did the simple math of how much it was going to cost. For most industries now, you’re going to have a hard time making money on a $500 product if you’re using Facebook ads. For some industries that’s not the case at all. For mine, at least, I was doing the math, we’re going to break even at $500. I need to figure out how to sell this thing for more money.
In order to scale, we ended up raising it to $1,000 because we knew we had to figure out how to do that. At least with my clients, when I make them push before we build out funnels, before we build the webinar, I’m like, “Please spend the week figuring out how to make this thing $800, $900, $1,000.” Put the effort in there because I found it makes everything else so much easier. Building everything else out and selling it and making it profitable when you just put in the extra work to raise the price. That’s why we did that. Then we did our first live webinar on Facebook ads and I realized when we’re running the full system.
Running the webinars instead of trolling the Facebook groups telling people to buy, I’m doing it with Facebook ads. We ended up the whole thing built out. I had way more positioning than I had before. I’m just coming into Facebook groups. I’ve got nothing. When I’ve got Facebook ads, a funnel, a follow-up series, and I show up to a live webinar and I give a good pitch and all that, $1,000 was a lot more reasonable. Building a webinar allowed me to increase my price point a ton but also scale a ton and I just wouldn’t be able to do it without that.
When you’re able to connect with people on a live webinar, there is a lot more bond that happens. It’s that fast transition from a cold prospect to somebody who doesn’t know anything about you. They’re interested in the end result. “That’s $6,000 a month. I’m interested but I have no idea who this Dave Rogenmoser guy is.” You spend an hour with them because time is the most important element of building a relationship from a cold prospect to somebody who’s ready to buy.
When they commit to showing up to an appointment, they’re instantly more qualified and then they spend an hour with you, now they’re screaming hot and you haven’t done any other marketing. It was like, “Show them my live webinar and let’s see what happens.” How big did you scale this when you first started to realize this work? How long were you doing live webinars?
We knew we wanted to do an evergreen webinar, but I also think it’s a mistake a lot of people make. A lot of people try to go evergreen webinar right out of the gate. I don’t get it. Entrepreneurs are working all day long and then all of a sudden, you are talking about doing a live webinar and everyone’s like, “I don’t have time for it.” You don’t have time to do anything but live webinars, you need to clear off everything else out of your life except for live webinars. I don’t know why you’re too busy to do a live webinar all of a sudden. I see you working twelve-hour days. We knew we wanted to refine the pitch, refine the offer, engage with our people. As I’m on these live webinars, I’m talking to people. I’m finding out they love certain things that we’re doing.
In other parts of the offer, I’m like, “Nobody even wanted that.” All of a sudden, every single week, I’m going back and I’m changing my pitch, changing my offer, working on my slides. I’m exporting the chat and I am looking at, “What are people talking? What questions are they asking?” I’m making the presentation amazing week by week. It was after doing that six or seven times that we turned into more of an evergreen-type product and built it into a funnel. it was crazy. It took a whole month for all four of us to build out this funnel. It was a pretty crazy funnel but ended up working well. That allowed us to scale from doing $5,000 or $10,000 to $90,000 or $100,000 a month in about five months of just running that funnel right there.
That was only live webinars?
The scaling ended up being the evergreen webinars. I don’t know about how high we got with doing live before we switched to evergreen but I definitely I was looking at it more of a testing ground for the offer and for the presentation. Knowing at least that we were going to scale using evergreen.
I love what you said and I preach it to all of my clients and anyone who’s asking me, “How do I get started?” or “What should I do to sell my product or service?” You need to be doing webinars because you need to be refining your pitch, which is the single most important aspect of business in general, entrepreneurs in general. If people don’t want to buy what you’re selling, you have no business.
A webinar in general, but a live webinar in particularly, will give you that opportunity to be able to refine and tweak and get immediate feedback from the people who are most likely to buy. I love what you said because it makes so much sense and I firmly believe it. It’s like, “Get that feedback and then you can revise and reframe it and start to scale.”
I’m working on a new webinar to launch Proof, a new software for marketers to help them increase the conversion rate on their funnels. I’ve got the first webinar here in two days and we’ve got 200 to 300 people registered for it. I’m nervous. I don’t know how it’s going to go but what I’m looking forward to is not just about making sales, I’m looking forward to that feedback loop. This is the first time I can get all my hot customers in a room and we’re talking, we’re engaged, “What do you guys like? What questions do you have?” I’m going to learn so much about what we’ve got from that. That’s way more valuable than the money we’re going to make. It’s the feedback loop, but I love that. That’s what live webinars are all about, especially early on.
I’m excited about Proof with what you’re doing. I know I’m going to be giving you some feedback on your webinar, but I’m a big believer in what Proof is. Let’s pivot to Proof. You have not run the webinar yet, so you’ve got your webinar coming up. I’m helping you with your webinar pitch but let’s take a step back. As you’re creating this, what’s your angle? First of all, tell people what Proof is. Go ahead and give a background of what your software does. Let’s talk about how we’re going to approach it to get our target customers to buy?
I’ll let everyone behind the scenes take off my like teaching goggles here to say, “Here’s what I’ve been working on. Here’s where I’m stuck.” I’m still not 100% sure about how to go about this, which is why I want to get your feedback and your thoughts. Proof is an application that you install on your landing pages for people that are running paid traffic into any sort of webinar funnels, anything like that, obviously, you need it to convert well.Social proof matters huge for any purchase we ever make. Click To Tweet
We’ve found when adding this little application onto your page, what it does is if somebody buys, it will send out a little notification, real-time on your page and show any new visitors, “Joel Erway bought this program seven minutes ago in California.” “Dave Rogenmoser bought this in Annapolis, Maryland two minutes ago.” It adds real-time social proof to your funnels. When we’ve added it to our pages, we found it increases conversion rate by a lot. In a lot of cases, it’s doubled. It’s been less, in some cases, it’s been 10% to 20%. Even at 20% percent on a funnel is 10% to 20% more money for anyone running funnels, so it’s been very significant and that’s where it’s at.
It’s not going to be full to the public for people to use for another month and a half, but like I said, I’m preselling, I’m such a big believer in it. Sell it before it even exists. That’s where we’re at right now with the product. We’re stirring everybody up. We ask people, “What do you think about it?” I’ve been talking to users trying to figure out, “What language do you use?” I’m learning from them and then we’ll launch it. The question I have is, “Do I sell software?” Do I say, “Here’s the big reveal for my software, come learn about it because I’ve been telling people about it and people know that it’s coming?” Or do I sell it and wrap it and do I say, “The outcome that you want, my software happens to be part of that?” That’s where I’ve been trying to figure out what the app should be.
He’s got a software called Proof and it’s a conversion tool. It’s going to help people boost conversions on the sales page and also on opt-in pages. Wherever you’re trying to collect information or collect a transaction, Proof is there as social proof. It’s installed on that page. Anytime somebody else completes that action, it pops up a little notification saying, “Joel just bought this five minutes ago. Joel just opted-in five minutes ago.” It shows you that, “If somebody else is doing it, I don’t want to miss the party.” It’s fear of missing out.
It is. We’ve found it’s so hardwired into our brains. This is how we make decisions. When we’re unsure, we just look around to see is anybody else doing this and if no one else is doing it, you bail because you don’t want to be the sucker. When you’re about to opt-in for your webinar or someone else’s webinar, you can show them notification that says, “Joel opted-in too.” You’re like, “If he opted, I’m in too.” It’s ridiculous but it’s how our brain works. We want to tap into the core fundamentals of how our brain works, the core fundamentals of persuasion and help push people over the edge using Proof.
Now that we’re building the webinar, you’re trying to come up with the right angle. You don’t know if you create an offer that sells the software itself as a standalone product or you sell an information product and include Proof as a bonus. I’ll have you explain why those two options are being weighed and also chime in after you comment. I’ve got some interesting feedback. Explain to our readers, they’ve never sold anything before, why would you consider both of these options?
I want to hear your thoughts because I’m still wrestling with how to go about this and you’ve done this well before. What goes through my head is it’s so obvious. It’s a knee-jerk reaction to sell the software. Anybody who just wants to create a widget and wants to sell a widget, what happens then is one, it triggers all these emotions. If somebody comes in, they know the widget is coming and they’re already going to have their defenses up if they know they’re entering into a buying situation. People join webinars. They’re not idiots. They know that some pitch is probably going to happen here but that’s the easy route.
What’s harder and a little bit more complex is thinking through. How do I sell not just the widget but the training on how to do the widget and sell what the widget and the training can do for you? When you can do that, you not only get to have people who will buy your software or who will buy what you have, but you expand the market because you’re saying, “Even if you’re not quite ready for it, I’m going to give you some training as well that’s going to get you ready for the software.” I’d love to hear your thoughts on all that and how you’ve seen that work effectively. That’s a massive shift. If you’re reading this, pay close attention to what whatever you’re about to say, Joel. This is big and if you can make this shift, you can go out there and you can dominate.
One of my big mentors in the digital marketing space and online entrepreneur space was Russell Brunson. Russell Brunson is the owner of big software called ClickFunnels. His big launch was in 2015. He sold ClickFunnels primarily through webinars. The way that he did it was pretty revolutionary. He did $10 million in sales from only webinars and ClickFunnels. You have to understand that with a software there are more hard costs than there is an info product. You’ve got to pay for developers, you’ve got maintenance and you’ve got a lot of different things. It’s important that if you’re selling a lower month to month payment plan, there’s software out there that’s $5 a month or $1 a month. Some people want to go mass volume and it’s like, “I want you to reconsider it.” It all depends on what your software does.
ClickFunnels is a big software. They’ve got tons of hard costs. I know that when Russell was launching it, he goes, “I need to get as much money upfront as possible.” Rather than just selling a million copies at $97 a month, which is how much it was selling for then, he needed to get more money to feed the developers and reinvest back into the company. It was a more complex product, it was a landing page software, it was automation, it was a shopping cart. It had a lot of value there. He wrapped it around an info product called Funnel Hacks, which was showing people how to use the software. It was framed in a way that was still valuable, he was teaching people how to build different sales funnels, automated webinar funnels, the whole lot. It was a great program.
What he did was he got people so indoctrinated with the training course that by the time they were done with the training course, they could not use ClickFunnels. It’s almost like he sold the onboarding process and he gave them a year for free. He’s brilliant at positioning the offers. The very first thing that you saw when you went through his webinar was, “I’m going to give you ClickFunnels for free for a year.” It was the very first part of his offer, so it’s, “Get the software for free for a year.” He starts talking about the training. It’s like, “We’re going to give you Funnel Hacks Masterclass where we do automated webinar funnels, opt-in funnels, self-liquidating offer funnel.” He gives all this training and it’s all built inside of ClickFunnels.Just do a webinar. It's a skill you have to learn. Click To Tweet
Every module of that training was showing them how to do it all and how to monetize using ClickFunnels, how to be successful using ClickFunnels. By the time they are done, he sold them on the onboarding, he gave them a ton of value and now they’re so well entrained with ClickFunnels that they cannot use it. He’s getting 10x his payment upfront so he can reinvest. He is still marketing this webinar funnel and he’s getting people to now just stick around.
The customer retention was great and it was just a brilliant offer. I duplicated this model with two other webinar clients. Both have gone on to do seven figures in their software where we gave away six months for free of the software. We sold them an info product and then after that, it was $97 a month, one of them was $500 a month and they just crushed it.
I love that because it broadens your market so much. If a person hadn’t sold that, people that are going to buy are people who already know how to build funnels. They’ve seen a better software tool. I remember where I was the first time I ever saw that webinar and I’m a total newbie. I’m not building funnels. I don’t have any money to build funnels for. I have nothing to sell. I remember pulling the trigger on it because he’s like, “I’m going to teach you all of that,” which broadens the market tenfold. I remember thinking that was so brilliant.
I remember talking to him. He goes, “I did $10 million with just that webinar selling ClickFunnels.” He’s completely dominated that market. They are the kingpin and they’ve squashed, I won’t mention who they squashed, they’ve taken a huge market share from their number one landing page competitor. It was all because they sold around education. Where we shift this and we look at Proof. Whenever I look at the offer and I try to figure out if we are going to wrap it around an info product, I want to see how complex the product is. The more complex, the more education they’re going to need. If Proof is installing a little widget, it’s increasing sales by 20%. It’s a no-brainer, but it’s not building a website. If it’s a simpler install, you can broaden your offer. If you want to charge more, you can give them a conversion course because that’s all it is.
There’s nothing to do. It’s put it on and it works or it doesn’t. ClickFunnels is like, “I only have to take a month to figure out how to use all these.” I’m totally with you.
If I were building the webinar, you’re going to create a $997 offer for this, correct?
What are you doing? Preselling it for a year?
I am going to presell it for a full year.
You could sell it just as that because you’re going to be able to get them quick results. I don’t think that you’d need to wrap it around an info product. I think your hot market will buy it at $1,000 and you don’t need to do anything else with that. If you want to broaden it even more, you could sell a conversion training and talk about how Proof will boost their conversions once they understand that whole marketing behind what conversions really are.
That’s a whole other market that you can focus on but the low hanging fruit market, which is people who already have traffic coming to their site, they’re already making sales, would buy Proof for a year because they could get their money back in a day. If they’ve got traffic coming to them, they’re selling stuff, it’s a no-brainer. That’s 20% increase in sales, you do $90,000 a month with your auto webinar. The 20% extra is $18,000 a month.
That’s what I’ve been wrestling with is, “There’s this hot market that knows what we’re doing, that already is a perfect fit. I’m going to give them money back guarantee too on it.” It’s like, “Buy it and install it. If it works, great. If it doesn’t, you’ll get your money back.” It’s going to take you a minute to install anyway. It’s such an easy sell for those people.
What I’m realizing is past the initial launch, I’ve got to start broadening the market. I’ve got to start taking people that are close to the market, that are close to being ready for it and figure out how do I scoop them into it? How do I give them what they need to become my perfect customer so that they’re ready for Proof and they’re ready for all it can do for them? Maybe that’s traffic training because the more traffic you have, the more you need Proof. Maybe it’s a funnel training because the more funnels you’re doing that are working, the more you need Proof. It was conversion and all those types of things but that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking.
This whole conversation started about using webinars to increase the price of your program because it builds authority, builds credibility, and builds the bond with your ideal customers who need to know if they can trust you before they purchase anything from you. Another thing that we talked about was Proof and adding social proof to boost conversions. There are two different boosts that you can do. The first boost that we talked about is boosting your price.
The second boost that we talked about is boosting the volume and boosting the number of people who convert. I would love to see any tests that you do, Dave, of testing price points with Proof. Seeing if split testing a $500 offer or $1,000 offer without Proof and then split testing a $1,490 offer with Proof and seeing what those results look like.
We have done a little bit of that. All of our data is very loose right now. I’m not coming out and saying this is the data because we’ve seen some crazy things, we’ve seen some neutral things. Initially, it looks like Proof works better on lower ticket items than it does on a higher ticket. I’m $1 trial, $100 a month, $200 a month crushes because it’s just a little bit. It pushes them over the edge. For a little bit, we’ve seen $1000, $1500 so far. It doesn’t look like it’s helped quite as much yet and we’re going to work on what the Proof says and all of that.
My initial thought is maybe to make a big purchase, you factor in so many other things that whether or not Johnny that you’ve never even met before who did it might not be as big of an influence. Though I still think social proof matters huge for any purchase we ever make. If somebody else bought a house, you’re more likely too. We’ll just have to figure it out. I’m with you. Right now, it’s working on lower price points better.
That’s valuable data too because as you go up the price point, you have to know what are the buying decisions, what are the influential decisions and buying triggers.
We dug in. I’d love to come back too, maybe after I get this Proof webinar launched. We get some stats on that. I love to come back and just say, “Here’s what happened. Here’s what went well.” I know I’m going to mess up a lot. That’s what makes me nervous too. There’s a lot of failure coming up for me getting a new webinar launched. I’m buckling down for it. I’m reminding myself that I know what I’m doing as a marketer, but I still got plenty of room to learn. I’d love to come back and talk through the ups and downs of launching a new webinar.
Dave, is there anything else that maybe we glazed over or anything else that people will find valuable?
I’m so big on webinars. I feel if anybody I look at in the market, particularly if you’re going to sell courses or you’re a coach, you’re selling software or anything like that, try to find somebody that’s doing over $1 million a year that’s not doing webinars. I’d be shocked if you’re able to find it. A realization I had was I looked forward and I said, “Some people are using it more than others, but everybody I’m seeing has a webinar in some capacity.” I think it’s a skill you have to learn. It changed my life. It took me from $5,000 a month to $100,000 a month in about five months. It’s not going do it for everybody. Some of you are going to do a lot more than that. It’s big and this is a great podcast. I think this is a topic everyone needs to be thinking about and I’d say just do a webinar.Remind yourself that you know what you’re doing as a marketer, but you still got plenty of room to learn. Click To Tweet
Where can we find more about Dave Rogenmoser and what you’re working on?
This is what I’m most excited about. Go to GetMoreProof.com. That’s the software we talked about. You will be able to see live any iterations we’re making. Maybe I’ll have a webinar registration link that you can go see the webinar that you and I come up with, Joel. You can add it to your funnel and test it out for yourself.
Dave, you dropped some serious value bombs on us and knowledge bombs. Looking forward to having you back on and closing the loop of what we’ve got going on with the launch of Proof and the launch of the software. I will reach out again to wrap up and to finalize those stats, so people who are here can check in on us. I’m excited to have you back on for a future episode. I want to thank everybody who is here. We’ll see you all on the next one. Take care.
Thanks so much for being here. We hope you enjoyed this episode and we look forward to giving you the next one. You can also follow and watch the behind the scenes look at how I’m personally launching a brand new six and seven-figure product from scratch at SoldWithWebinars.com/TV. If you’d like to come hang out with other fellow experts, join our Facebook group at SoldWithWebinars.com/Experts. Join us next time and I’ll see you there.