I recently caught up with my good friend and internet marketing legend, Anik Singal. He’s the founder of Lurn.com, an e-learning platform for entrepreneurs with over 400,000 members.
Anik is a master at selling with webinars. He’s been doing webinars for almost a decade and made, by my rough estimation, clost to $100 million with them.
Besides nerding out on traffic, offers, and webinars, Anik and I also spoke about his entrepreneurship journey and how he got to where he is today
From struggling for 18 months to figure out “this internet marketing thing” back when he was in college… to making 7-figures a year by the time he graduated… to losing it all during the 2008/09 Great Recession and being $1.7 million in debt… to using those lessons to navigate the current recession.
This is one of those podcasts you’ll want to listen to more than once. You’re going to hear cutting edge webinar sales strategies Anik reveals in public for the first time. It’s so new, they just got the data back a couple of days before we recorded our interview.
- What Anik did to improve conversions of his Inbox Blueprint webinar by 30%… and then improve monetization by 40% [16:59]
- The hardest thing to do when presenting a webinar… it’s the difference between converting 5% of your audience and converting 10% [20:17]
- How to get 95% of your customers to buy your “upsell” without adding anything more to your offer [22:31]
- How to figure “what” to say in your promo – this works whether you’re writing emails, sales pages, VSLs, webinars… pretty much any time you’re trying to sell something [27:53]
- The #1 reason why you lose the sale on a webinar (hint: it’s got nothing to do with your webinar length, how good your copy is, the price of your product, or the bonuses you’re giving them) [34:15]
…And much more!
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Joel Erway: [00:00:21]
Hey, thanks for tuning in and welcome to another very special episode of Sold With Webinars. You are in for a heavy hitter, amazing episode today. So it’s been a while since I’ve had a guest on sold with webinars and today we’ve got Anik Singal, one of the greats, one of the heavy hitters, one of the guys who is absolutely just destroying it right now in the space of webinars.
He has joined us on the podcast today. We are going to be talking about all things related to what he is doing right now. And he’s doing back to back 3000 person live webinars with his business and his business is absolutely exploding during this time.
And so I wanted to have him on the podcast. We’re going to talk about all the things that he’s doing and it’s going to be an excellent, excellent interview. I cannot wait to jump into it. Anik, welcome to the show, my man.
Anik Singal: [00:01:18]
Oh man. Thanks for having me. It’s it’s my honor. My pleasure. I love this podcast. Love what you’re doing. Love webinars. I’m a total webinar geek, so let’s do it, man.
Joel Erway: [00:01:27]
Anik, you had like the webinar event of the ages a couple of months back. Maybe we can start there and give some people a little bit of background about lurn and about your businesses. I guess let’s start there.
So like, let’s give a quick background about introduction, about who you are and then we’ll jump right into the meat of the content.
Anik Singal: [00:01:48]
Yeah, man, I’ll keep it real short. So I have been doing this internet marketing stuff since before Google, before Skype, before Facebook, literally that I put that out there to just show people.
It’s been 17 years I’ve been doing this and I started off in a forum trying to learn how to do this right when I was in college and struggled my butt off for 18 months. And so everyone out there who’s looking for their overnight success story. You’ll get it. You just have to struggle for a little while.
It’s part of the process. Didn’t have any of the resources we have today. Come on podcasts, YouTube, courses, Google. Like I didn’t have any of that, but fortunately it didn’t have a lot of persistence work hard and, you know, grew from there and graduated college. I was already making a million a year.
It’s nuts, right? So all I struggled for 18 months, the following 6 months that came from there, I went to a half a million dollars and then the next year, it took my business to well over a million. Graduated, you know, took off, was doing great, built my company, kept growing. I’m always about scale.
Everything for me is about scale. Go bigger, go home types. And so it was building, building, building. By the time I was 25, it’s like 10 million a year company. Multiple offices all over the world. 2008, 2009 happens total shatter crash. 1.7 million in debt. My parents have to put a mortgage on their home to help me out, horrible time of my life.
But I recovered from that and I say this part of the story, because lots of lessons I learned in that economic crash I’m applying today. And I’m really using to surf through this thing and be safe, but I’ve been through the economics up and down. I’ve been in this industry. I’ve seen the cycles.
I see where we go, which way we go, pricing cycles, you know, marketing cycles, all of it. Lurn is a company I started building about five years ago. Cause my dream and my passion really is to facilitate and connect entrepreneurs. I don’t want to just be another internet marketer, but I want to build an actual platform, which is what we’re doing now.
We have now 400,000 members in the platform without us trying or marketing it at all. That’s been pretty much organic. We’re marching to 10 million, but I’m still a ways away from all the features that they were going to build there, but it’s all about education providing content from all the different industry experts, but also then connecting entrepreneurs, facilitating those relationships between entrepreneurs all in one hub.
So we call ourselves the, the home for entrepreneurs. By the way, physically and virtually. So we have a physical home here too. We have a 26,000 square foot facility that we built with the lecture hall and classrooms and game rooms and nap rooms. It’s a little playground for entrepreneurs, so that’s Lurn.
And that’s the background. The event that you spoke about is actually really funny story. The event was called webinar con, so it’s highly relevant to this audience. And actually my business partners, uh, Ron Douglas and Andy Hassan came to me with the idea of months before, because we had the facility, I have a lecture hall, literally like a beautiful place that can take 120, 130 people.
So we started off with just like a little mastermind. We thought, man, let’s do a 20, 30 person mastermind. We’ll get some smart people in the room and we’ll charge enough to make sure it’s breakeven, but what we really wanted to do a deal making event. So it wasn’t just come sit around and talk about content, but it was like we actually make deals and you come to the event and like broker deals between people.
And one thing leads to another, the fricking things blows up and we start posting on Facebook. We didn’t spend a diamond traffic, nothing. We just personal Facebook posts like, Oh, you know, so, and so’s coming and, Oh, so-and-so’s coming in. It just took off and I’ll jump forward. We ended up having about 115 of the top marketers in the world.
And these are, I would say out of the 115, 90% of them are seven figure earners using webinars, almost all of them using webinars. And actually we have to turn people away. So this was a really qualified event. You had to be, you know, who’s who in the webinar world, because we wanted to do deal-making. It was not a content event necessarily.
And here’s the crazy part, Joel, a week, not even a week, 6 days after the event was over, we have to lock down our facility.
Joel Erway: [00:05:39]
Anik Singal: [00:05:40]
We just got it in there and are so nervous, you know, hopefully no one there had it or we’re fortunate. No one got sick from it and we’re great, but we just got it in 1200 deals were tracked.
Well that weekend we had a deal tracker. So 1200 deals, millions of dollars. It was considered. Lot of people that came, literally said, it’s the best event. We sold out the next one almost we sold at like 65% of the tickets to the next one already at that event. So tons of learning, we never expected the content to be as good as it was, but it was.
And we just learned, man. Webinars are still a baby. There’s so much more to be done with webinars. If you don’t have one right now, you are missing out. Like we’ve learned we’ve really doubled, tripled down on webinars over the last eight months, my business has just skyrocketed, and I’ve been doing webinars for, I don’t know, eight years now and not the way we do them now.
I mean, we treat webinars now like a true business and business is scaling to the degree of 20, 30% a month.
Joel Erway: [00:06:39]
Yeah and you’re already very, very, very, very well established, which is like, those are astronomical numbers when you’re hitting those growth rates at the level that you’re at.
Anik Singal: [00:06:47]
Yeah, absolutely. They are.
Joel Erway: [00:06:49]
So I totally had FOMO when I saw the posts going on. I’m not a big traveler. I’ve got two kids. I’ve got at the time she was four or five months old and I’ve got my son who was three and a half. And like, God, it’s such an easy trip from Niagara Falls to Baltimore. And like, should I go, shouldn’t I go?
And I ended up not going. But man, you talk about like event FOMO. I totally had it. I totally had it.
Anik Singal: [00:07:21]
We had a joke in the company. We actually call it FOMO formula. So at one point we realized that we were creating so much FOMO that we’d just double, triple down on it. And that’s why we didn’t spend a dime, but we used our personal Facebook profiles and we tagged the crap out of everybody will be posted stuff.
But it really worked. I mean, people showed up just because they didn’t want to miss out. They didn’t know what they’re showing up for it, but they thought, wow, that’s a lot of smart people in one room, something will happen. And so, yeah, it’s funny, you mentioned that, but they will get you out to the next one.
Joel Erway: [00:07:50]
FOMO by design, engineered FOMO. Awesome. So let’s jump into what you’re doing now with webinar. So we were talking before this and you’re doing back to back 3000 person live webinars. I mean, and the issue that you’re having right now is you have exceeded technological platforms.
Meaning like that’s your limit. Is nobody can handle the capacity that you want. So let’s take it a step back here. Let’s talk about what’s happening right now that is causing such demand for what you’re promoting. Do you think this is really driven by coronavirus or why do you think you’re having such hot demand right now?
Anik Singal: [00:08:39] No, I think it has nothing to do with Coronavirus because we started this way before. So we started doing massive webinars. I mean, we were doing a couple thousand, 1500 people webinars all last year, too. When we would put double down, it’s just a volume game.
Right? When your list is big enough for you, buy enough in ads. It’s just data, it’s math. So when we talk now, sometimes I’m like, people are like, well, what big secret things are you doing? And I’m like, I’m not, I do math. Like I’m an Excel guy when I run the map, it just makes sense. And so I just doubled down on it.
I do think show rates are up right now. So the coronavirus is definitely helping people show up to webinars because I don’t know what else did they have to do, I guess, but, no, I don’t think anything about the scale I mentioned that all started way before coronavirus for us. So really Coronavirus had nothing to do with that.
And to be clear, you mentioned, you know, technologically limited now people are listening and they’re saying, well he could do this, he could do that. Absolutely. There are solutions out there about 3000. They just start to get convoluted. That’s all, they’re not simple solutions, right? They’re not just click a button, log in, go to webinar.
Zoom has a 5,000 person room, but tons of people talk about how it alters as issues. And then there are other solutions out there they’re new and kind of buggy. You know, at this point, we’ve really started to switch our business a lot over to every web. Like evergreen we’re finding that actually evergreens are outperforming.
Even if you’re promoting to your email list, we’re actually starting to see some data that evergreen is better. So hopefully that’ll resolve that problem. But no, I think what’s driving the results is that we are being very data driven and we have some kahunas. That’s all I’m going to say, man, we go out, we swing.
I mean, I’ll spend a hundred grand on a webinar before the webinar.
Joel Erway: [00:10:14]
Anik Singal: [00:10:15]
But the math makes sense. We can break down the math if you want. It just makes sense. Like I’m taking a little risk, but I got my backside covered. I know I’m not going to go negative on it.
Joel Erway: [00:10:24]
Yep. So what’s the offer? Is this promoting Lurn? Is this one of the programs like let’s kind of break this down?
Anik Singal: [00:10:31]
It’s one of the programs, so we’ll have, you know, we’re a publishing company, right? So we publish a series of people on a series of topics. So for me, everyone knows me as either the copywriting guy or email marketing.
And so I have an amazing email marketing program that I’ve tried to walk away from. I get tired of teaching Optim pages and it just sucks me backend man, the industry, the market just loves this offer. It is now let’s see, 2014, I launched it. So six years in I’ve sold well over like probably about 35 or $40 million worth of it.
And it gets better. I literally just created a webinar right now that is out converting my old webinars by like 40%. And I charge more price, went up. The offer went got better, of course, but it’s like, it’s a time tested, you know, it’s just, it works. Students love it. We have a couple of other offers as well from experts that we publish.
So they’re usually offers, but nine, nine, seven or more, uh, nine nine seven to 997 is kind of our sweet spot for these webinars.
Joel Erway: [00:11:32]
Cool. And so how many are you doing per week? And are you doing like, is it one product per week? Will you do multiple pitches for the email marketing program each week? Like how are you cycling that?
Anik Singal: [00:11:45]
Sure. So it depends every month we typically pick one or two main programs from our catalog that we’re going to really focus on that month. And so, but then we have promotional partners, right? We have some joint ventures and exclusives with big brands that will promote us.
So we kind of like to keep everyone’s focused on one thing that we’re doing that month. So I could run four or five live webinars in a month that are going to be the 3000 person webinars. But what happens is we run the live webinar, let’s say on a Tuesday. So the audience we had built up to run that live webinar on Tuesday, we’ll do an Encore on a Thursday, right.
And I’m not going to do the Encore live. We’ll do a playback file, but the Encore it’s cellphone of having 1500 people on it. So even the encores are big. So if I’m going to do five webinars that are live, that’s really, usually means 10 or 12 webinars that are taking place in a live environment. So you can imagine that there’s the volume of people we’re putting together.
Now, also what we’ve begun to do over the last, like say two months is practice a lot more segmentation in our audience because our audience is so huge at learn. And we’ve brought people in from such a wide variety of topics that some people came in for copywriting. Some people came in for traffic, some people are complete noobs and they want to build a business.
And some people came in because they want to build a publishing business versus an Amazon business. And so it’s like, we can’t really be talking about one thing to all of them. It’s not the most ideal scenario. So slowly we’re starting to segment out and build. So, it is very likely and very possible that I might have, you know, there’s four or five live webinars I’m doing in a month.
But then we have a segment of our audience that we’re mailing something completely different to. And one of our experts is then doing two or three live webinars that month to promote that offer. And what’s really amazing, man, now is when we do a segment webinar. So I’m talking about, this is just a portion of our list.
We’ll get a thousand people on. And I remember just two years ago, if I hit my entire database and got a thousand people and it was like, wow, I maxed out, go to webinar. I’m the best. And now to get a thousand people and you’re like, Oh that didn’t really go well. But yeah, so we’ve had weeks Joel, where four webinars in a week.
I have a funny saying that I would run around in the company and say “a webinar a day, keeps the bill collector away”. So because there was times where we just have so many webinars going on, but we love it. You know, it works.
Joel Erway: [00:14:06]
Well, I’m sure like now your audience is used to webinars. Like that’s mostly what they’re signing up for. I mean, Russell just talked about this on one of his podcasts of these people who only build lists of audiences that know webinars, like that’s what they sign up for. And it’s an extremely valuable asset to have because of GV partners, et cetera, et cetera.
But you got to find the person who’s used to webinars. Like that’s part of the key. At least that’s what Russell was saying on his podcast.
Anik Singal: [00:14:40]
I mean, I guess I have by default, right? The other thing I’m going to tell you is that our webinars are really value driven.
I treat each webinar like an event and a launch in and of itself. So I never, I mean, you imagine how many of these we do and how much money we spend to drive traffic to them and how big our list is and we never get any complaints. So when you register for a webinar, you are going to be asked to watch.
Sometimes one, maybe two videos and these are meaty videos. These are, this is meaty content. Okay. This is not just some fluff. Seriously 30, 45 even as much as 60 minutes of content that I’m giving you, it’s true content. I’m actually teaching. I want you to be prepared for the webinar. Like I want you to come in, but certain things already kind of addressed so that my conversion rates are higher, but at the same time I’m serving you and coaching you and guiding you.
The other thing is we always for pretty much now a standard rule for our webinars. For everyone who stayed, anyone who stays till the very end, we always have a free gift. And lately I have found that the best free gift is a free book. A download a book though, they’ll call it a report. Don’t create kits.
I’m just finding people have this innate true value of a book. So we’ll give them a book. I write books super-fast now using my book hacking methodologies. Four or five days I can get on a new book, but I know that book is going to generate me seven figures, if not more instantly from lead gen for the webinar.
When you engage with one of our webinars and our company, it’s fun. Right? Coming up to the webinar, we do giveaways. We do fun contests challenges. We will do a challenge sometimes two-day challenge, go do this exercises before the webinar. Then after the webinar, we have a whole series of things we like to do.
So we find that our students, even the ones that aren’t buying. Actually really enjoy just a content aspect of it and don’t seem to get burned out and they show up again for the next one. And at some point, they’ll buy whatever they feel is interesting to them.
Joel Erway: [00:16:34]
Well, let’s talk about your email marketing webinar that you said recently, it’s outperforming it by 40%, right? So like what’s different? Like what were some of the things that you tested that you found like really move the needle? Cause 40% that’s nothing to sneeze. I mean, it’s a big boost, right?
Anik Singal: [00:16:54]
Well, I’m going to tell you kudos to you for catching that and making me talk about it because I wasn’t quite ready yet to talk about it, but I’ll do it.
It’s so hot off the presses. I haven’t refilled the evergreen yet. So that’s actually something we’ll be doing here in the next week, week and a half. So first and foremost this webinar, so you say 40% is big, but imagine we just two months ago, maybe three months ago now at this point, had already seen, we had increased our conversions by 30% and now we took that control and we’ve increased the monetization by another 40%.
So I wouldn’t say we increase conversions by 40%. We increased the monetization by 40%. So the first time around, okay. The biggest change we made, I had a webinar I had been using for years. So partly, Hey, it’s been seen and done and been there, done that types because so many people have seen it, but also that webinar.
It was very teachy if I’m going to say, and that’s just my nature. My webinars, I don’t understand people who can drop a URL at 70 minutes. I’ve never done that in my life. I don’t know how to talk that little. Like I’m going to drop my URL at 90 to 100 minutes in, and I had got all the people I hear you like that’s too long.
This is just who I am. I don’t lose people though. I never lose my audience. So for what it’s worth. It works for me. But this webinar was very like lots of demos, whiteboards, scribble padding, and it was good webinar converted really well, made millions with it, tens of millions with it.
But 2018 we started to see like early 2018. It wasn’t pulling on media buying for us anymore. Like it used to, we weren’t able to make the numbers work. A, ad costs have gone through the roof. B, I wasn’t doing the media buying anymore. And you know, I don’t think we had the right, right person in the right seat doing that and C, just the webinar wasn’t converting as well as we wanted it to.
So end of 2019 through a series of flukes, right.? I see something here, I funnel hack this thing, get some ideas. And one of my team members is like, I want to revisit this webinar. And I literally told him, I was like, Oh God, not this offer again. Like, let’s just let it go. Let’s go get another offer. Like, you know, but I run into students every day that are like inbox blueprint.
That was what got me going. That was my entry into the world. I’m like, so let’s do it justice. Right. I told him, go for it, do what you want. Go have fun. I’ll deliver the webinar. We’ll see what happens. So he did, it brings me back a webinar file. Very different, super different from where we had gone.
Simple. Good though. Like definitely educational. So in line with my standards of what a webinar should be, but very different and I kind of reviewed it and I was like, okay, I could see where this might work and we’ll give it a shot. We did. Conversions are through the roof. You know, we went, so the other webinars we had done on media at least had started falling to 5, 6% conversion, which is tough to make it work sometimes if you’re spending a lot on web pages.
This thing went straight up to like nine, nine, nine and a half, 10% almost. Now that may not sound like earth shattering things to people, but remember we’re going mass market. I’m putting 3000 people on a live webinar, which means they’re not the most targeted.
Right. I’ve gone mass. I’ve gone to people that aren’t from the internet marketing space. They don’t genuinely know what email marketing is. So 10% on that kind of an audience can be huge. Yup. So that was our first big evolution was to simplify the webinar. Stop getting into the nitty and gritty, stay at the higher level, talk concept, educate people on the high level, and really focused on the belief that they can do it.
Joel Erway: [00:20:26]
Like, it’s so critical. And as an educator, as a teacher, it’s the hardest thing to do.
Anik Singal: [00:20:35]
Joel Erway: [00:20:35]
It’s the hardest thing to do.
Anik Singal: [00:20:37]
Super hard. It was, you know, I’ve gotten really good at it now cause numbers talk and when you see the numbers, you’re like, okay, I’m going to stay high level.
I’m going to serve this audience. I’m going to overwhelm them with the details. So we did that. It’s been doing great. We’ve scaled it up to now. I think 15, 16,000 a day in media spend. And we just started a month ago. So it’s scaling up. And then I did this webinar with John Benson, so I’m going to give him, I’m going to give him the credit here, both him and I were talking.
And so it was like, two marketers and copywriters talking to each other and just kind of stacking up like, we could do this, we do this well, what if we did this? And what if we did this? And something great came out of it, which I was a little doubtful on, but I trusted John. So I was like, let’s just do it.
So I’m talking to John and we’re doing his copy pro offer to my list. And we ended up coming with the idea to do two offers, pitch two things at the same time. And I’m like, Oh, come on, man, direct marketing. That’s you know, what are you doing? I’ve never seen this done on a webinar. We were like, let’s give it a shot.
You know, so we crafted a creative way to do this, this offer. It’s like, you can guide this for this much, or you can get this for this much. It’s two payments of the same amount. You can do one payment of this amount. You can do two payments of this amount. If you can get this much here, this much here, right?
Like huge amounts here. So, we give it a go. John’s delivering the webinar. Pitches drop, URLs drop. I don’t really see a big burst of sales and I’m like, Aw, man, it’s, you know, maybe it’s this, it’s that. And then I don’t know what happens like 5, 10 minutes. And it’s like, like just sales start pouring in and 90, 95%.
I don’t have the exact percentage, but it was huge. It was definitely over 90% are buying the two payment without any hesitation, doubt, concern or anything. What I’ve done, and this is what now we’ve tested this, but it’s not valid testing in the sense of we tested it. But we’re still waiting to test it on the mass market and test it on ad buying.
So I don’t want anyone running off right now and just doing this because I’m not signing my name to it yet, but we tested it with a very warm affiliate, a big affiliate, like they drove a lot and we just recently did it. So, here’s something creative, Joel. Take your bonuses. Don’t call them bonuses.
So I’m calling them right now access. Access one, access two, access three, and turn them into a separate thing. So you got your main offer and then you got this awesome stack. And here’s what we did, main offer for one payment of 997. Awesome offer for two payments of 997. And just killed it.
Like again, the one that we just did now, I have numbers for that one 95% took the two payment and zero, zero complaints. Only thank you’s. And so just repositioning now I did, you know, instead of bonuses, the access points, I made them better. They’re sexy.
I really made it worth someone paying double the amount. But dude, I mean, that’s a lot more money for not the same one work.
Joel Erway: [00:23:53]
Is that what you did with your email copy or I’m sorry, inbox blueprint offer?
Anik Singal: [00:23:59]
Yup. That’s exactly what we did. And it killed it on this affiliate to the degree that we had to completely reshift now our plans in the company.
And so I’m refilming the webinar for the evergreen. That’s why I said to everybody like, I believe I’ve just hit something huge. And like I said, I genuinely wasn’t going to talk about this because I haven’t even executed on it yet. And here I am publicly talking about on a podcast, but I’m convinced a hundred percent.
I think I just hit on something huge that’s going to kill it for us. But, you know, time will tell because only that, which I can prove on media buying for me is worth anything. An affiliate. You can do anything with an affiliate. Sometimes if the relationship is warm enough, they can sell ice to an Eskimo, but I want to know what happens on media buying.
Joel Erway: [00:24:46]
That’s really interesting. I’m an offer guy. And as soon as you said that, like my offer radar was like, it was buzzing. I’m like, Oh I can totally see how that would crush it, how that could crush it. And it’s been something that now I’ve never even come close to that idea. But like, in my mind, I had been like wanting to try something different with the offer stack and the positioning.
And I just never could come up with anything that was like worthwhile to test. Cause I’m like, you just see something so often it’s like, God it’s got to get worn out. And I’ve seen some creative things done with offers outside of webinars. And I’m like, man, there’s got to be something else that we can do with an offer.
And you guys are here first. You know, this is a The Anik special, the John Benson special, we’ll see if it blows up and if so, we’re going to take claim that it was first talked about on the podcast here.
Anik Singal: [00:25:46]
Yeah. And it’s funny, I’ve not even talked about it with John yet, so I don’t know which one of us is going to take claim to this.
I don’t know whose idea it was. I genuinely cannot trace back why we even did it. Like, why didn’t we just go with a standard straight 997 offer who threw this monkey wrench in for the other offer. And I actually want to call them and ask them like, who’s was this because when it does blow up, both him and I are going to be fighting over this idea.
It was. But I don’t know, man. It was one of the, probably the cooler, big takeaways that I’ve had this month. I mean, we just did this. So for everyone who’s listening the time where we’re recording this, this is to be three days ago, it’s like literally hot off the presses. We’re still crunching the data.
We completed crunching the data a day before yesterday, and I had to have the team re crunch the data because it was so damn good. It didn’t make any sense. And so it, you know, this is this, and then it led to yesterday. All team had leads coming together from ops, from content, from this and saying, all right everyone stop the presses.
We are changing the way we do a couple of things. And that means we need this created, that created go move fast cause we figured out every day we’re not doing it. It was costing us 10 to 15 grand a day.
Joel Erway: [00:26:57]
Anik Singal: [00:26:58]
And it’s like, when you put it in that kind of map, you’re like move.
Joel Erway: [00:27:01]
Yeah. So I want to talk about staying high level real quick and then I want to move into traffic because the numbers that you’re pushing, not many people do that. Not many people will ever do that. And so I kind of want to talk about scale at that point, but before I know we got a lot of people that are very, uh, they get stuck on content writing and I call it the experts curse.
They’re way too close to their product. They talk techno babble. They want to teach, they want to teach. What are some of your takeaways for staying high level and staying top level and how are you able to kind of know when you’re creating and when you’re delivering it, you’re like, yes, this is the level that I need to stay at. Don’t go any deeper.
Anik Singal: [00:27:52]
So I actually have a great answer for that. So when I teach copywriting, I teach copywriting in five steps and I don’t care if you’re writing emails and careful writing written sales letters, video sales letters, or even more like most applicable to webinars, five steps. Intro, story, content, transition, and pitch.
And so right there, content it’s in the middle and people will say content in a webinar, in a sales pitch. What are you talking about? Okay. I want everyone to understand something. It isn’t the content that your consumer is sold. It is not in the pitch. This is the biggest misbelief out there. Bottom line is everyone knows your there’s a pitch.
They know you’re going to pitch them something. So if they’re still there and you’ve begun your pitch, they’re already sold. The only question on their mind is how much, that’s what they’re asking. That’s why they’re still listening. But if someone’s asking you how much it means they’re sold, right?
Why are they sold there? They’re not sold because of your beautiful story of rags to riches. They couldn’t care less. They’re not sold because you did a beautiful introduction. They’re sold because of what you said in the content piece. Now that is where you make or break a sale. So in the content piece, I have some very simple instructions I follow.
Very simple rules. One, stay linear. What do I mean by stay linear? Your audience has to know this is why I love the three step system to five step system to where I throw a diagram up because they should know where I am as I’m teaching. I always use this as an example. I love Tony Robbins, love all his events.
Amazing man can change lives, no arguments to be had there, but if you’ve ever talked to someone who’s gone to a Tony Robbins seminar, when they come out of the event. You ask them, how was it? They were like, Oh my God, I would get off. They’re going to take over the world or run through a wall. And they’re just like, literally like freaking going nuts, just wait two seconds and then say, Oh, what’d you learn?
And see what they say. There go, uh, I, what, I don’t know, I’m just I’m ready to do this. And it’s like, well, what was your biggest takeaway? And it’s because in that time they were immersed with so much stuff they’re ready to go, but they don’t know which direction they’re going in sometimes. Right. And so, and I don’t say this as, by the way, like his events are incredibly life changing, but you don’t want to create that environment in a webinar.
So first rule is linear. I love to like, step one, step two, step three, keep it very simple. Okay. Next, this is what’s going to answer your question of “how do I keep it high level?”. I have a simple rule for a sales presentation and call it the AHA rule. My job is to make someone have three to five aha moments in a presentation.
Not less, not more. If they have too many, I’m going to confuse him. If they have too little, I’ve ever no credibility. I have no reason for them to buy my product. So what’s an aha moment? Okay. Give you an example. So Atkins diet first comes out. This guy, crazy guy comes out and says, you want to lose weight, eat as much beef and bacon as you can.
And someone says, the heck the old man’s lost his mind. What are you talking about? And I’m not supposed to eat fat. I don’t eat fat to lose weight. And then he goes, Oh yeah, look at this research. Look at this research. Look at this research. What you don’t know is carbs, become sugar, which becomes fat and someone hears that and goes, holy crap.
Aha, I didn’t know that. That’s boom. Done. Move on. Don’t go deeper into it. That’s not the right place. Let them go. Oh, and the minute they have an Oh move on to the next aisle. And if you can stack three to five, those reactions in a content section, just hold. They’re good. So you need to deliver.
So I always use this as an extreme example, so I’ll be like, Hey Joel. Awesome. I’m glad you’re here for this presentation about how to lose weight. Uh, I’m going to teach you how to lose weight, Joel. I’ve got a great program. It’s very simple, eat less, move more, drink water. Joel, that’d be a thousand dollars and you’re going to be like, what the, you know, are you serious? But let’s face it, man, between you and I and the weight loss space.
That is how you lose weight. The large at the grand scheme of things, right. Yet it’s a multibillion-dollar industry because what I would come to you is I’d say, okay, Joel, I’m going to give you the Palm method. The Palm method means you can eat absolutely anything you want, but I’m going to show you how to measure it and how often you can eat it.
But it means you can eat pizza, bagels, you can eat brownies, you can eat whatever you want. And then number two, I’m going to, so the aha you have there is okay, wait, I can lose weight by eating anything. And then I have to throw some research in front of you. Some studies that talks about something or the other.
So it makes you feel like, okay, I learned something. Wow. That was cool. Especially if I can counter common belief. Then I can really create an aha moment. Right? So in my email startup incubator webinar, the aha’s we have is step number one, is actually show them why websites suck and that they should not have a website, but that they need as a landing page.
I mathematically show it. And then I actually pulled a psychological study about choice overload. And I go through that study and every time without fail, you could see the comments. People are like, Whoa, Whoa. Cause it’s just a little psychological concept that they learned that they never thought about.
And then they walk away from that webinar going well, it was cool. Like, I didn’t realize that. Boom. Right? And then the next one, I talk about how to find affiliate programs that pay 75% or more, but I set it up. So I make them feel like they’re going to doubt. They doubt me. I get them to doubt me. I say, how many of you are skeptical right now?
How many of you don’t believe this is possible? You know, why would someone pay you 75, 85, 95%, 100% percent commission? This is stupid. So everyone’s like, doesn’t makes sense. Doesn’t make any sense. And then I pull up, I go live and I say, and I just backed back show them. Look, you can all access this right now.
This, this, this here’s the URL. Here, go here, go here, go here, go here. So second, aha. And then the third one, I talked about traffic where I dispel most of the myths and then I land up on the number one platform that I recommend, but I do it backwards. And so they’re learning the whole time and the aha moment is how targeted you can get today.
Most normal people don’t realize how targeted you can get with Facebook. It’s actually really impressive and creepy. And so, aha moment, but this is a standard rule. Once you have the aha, you’ve said enough to have the aha, move on. Don’t, um, what’s the word don’t wander around your topic yet.
And the last thing I’ll say is this, the more you say, the more questions you might get asked. That is the death of a sale. Don’t let them ask questions. Don’t say something. That’ll make them go, wait, what? What’d you mean by that? What’s that? Oh, you lost your aha. Skip the aha and move on.
Joel Erway: [00:34:37]
And it’s a balancing act. Like it’s a dance and it’s why you have to, it’s one of the great things about webinars and doing them live is you get that feedback instantaneous, which you can’t really get on a sales letter or kind of get it on a video sales letter, if you’re tracking the engagement of whatnot, but like, that’s why it’s so important to do this stuff live because when you do it, you get that instant feedback is like, Whoa, Whoa. Like they got questions, or you’ll say, Holy crap. Right? That’s why it’s so important to do that stuff live.
And man, it’s so easy to go deep. It’s so easy to want to teach. And you know, that’s why they say like teaching kills, kills conversions, but it’s an art, it’s an art and a skill that you have to learn.
All right. So let’s talk traffic now. Cause you do big numbers. You do really big numbers. Okay. Where is the primary bulk of it coming from? Are you going to new audiences on paid media or doing joint ventures or internal email traffic or internal assets? Like when you’re promoting one of those 3000 person live webinars, what’s the balance?
Anik Singal: [00:35:53]
Got it. Great question. So when I’m doing it, it all depends.
And so there is no custom solution and this is where you have to as a marketer lurn, I say this all the time. If you’d come to my office, there’s a few words you’ll hear me say all the time. The team gets it drives them nuts. Oh, I say the word psychology. I say the word narrative. That’s the biggest one.
That’s the narrative all the time. What’s the narrative? What’s the narrative. Right? And then the third one I always say is specificity. So be specific with your promotion, be specific with your copy. The narrative is what I want to talk about here. So let’s say I’m doing a promotion that is a $4,000 program.
It’s with a partner. It’s not my offer. I’m promoting somebody else’s offer and it’s a big ask. So I already know right now going cold for 4,000 someone who has no idea who I am. Has no idea who my partner is. It’s probably not the safest bet. So if I’m going to fill this room, I’d rather fill it with warm.
I’d rather fill it with people that know me, like me, trust me. I’m going to have the best chance of getting a conversion there. Now I’m very blessed in the sense of that we have over the last three, four, four years now spent tens of millions on these platforms. So we have really large warm audiences.
Right? And so we can do massive ad buying and keep it warm versus a lot of people who may not have those big warm audiences on these platforms. And so they’ll have to kind of, you have to grow, you know, I have a lot of my friends that come to me, like, I want to do what you’re going to do.
I’m ready to put a hundred thousand dollars in ads and I’m like, well, hold on Kemosabe. You can’t just do that. Right? Cause I’m putting a hundred thousand into ads. To warm audiences. You’re not going to get the ROI I’m getting that can print 7, 8X ROI, but you’re not going to right off the bat.
So most of my traffic now comes from Facebook and YouTube. I love YouTube, by the way, if you’re not doing YouTube ads totally missing out. But I still like Facebook. I have nothing wrong with Facebook. It’s just more cumbersome. It’s just a bigger bit more of a pain. YouTube is just easier to run ads, easier to launch ads, easier to manage ads, and you don’t have to wake up every morning, sweating bullets that they’re going to ban you.
They just don’t typically work that way. We do partners, but not a lot. Mostly cause I’m lazy. I don’t want to do a webinar every other day, especially when you have evergreen running, that’s killing it. Or especially when you know you can spend a week and pop 3000 of your own people in and keep the full margin.
So it’s like, you know, I do affiliates. I’ll do affiliates when I know that someone baked they’re going to pop, you know, a lot of people on it’s going to be worth the time. Of course our own email list. We can fill rooms with our own email list. But when I do media buying, Facebook and YouTube, and again, now it depends on the offer.
Some offers, I’m going to just do YouTube because it might be for an affiliate. It might be for a small promotion, smaller promotion we’re doing. And when I say small, I’m still putting 1500 to 2000 on the webinar, but it’s an in and out. I don’t want to mock around with Facebook’s approval process. You know, I see YouTube go in, spend a bunch of money, come back out.
Longer-term promotion, something I intend to turn evergreen something that’s internal, something that’s going to have legs. I’ll go to Facebook as well. Get the whole process started and get the Facebook pixel going. But, I will go to my warm audiences first, always. So warm audiences are defined by list uploads, page, people that have hit the thank you pages on our stuff, buyers, people that have watched sizable amounts of my videos, people maybe clicked and landed on our pages.
Like these are warm people engaged with my page, like on the Facebook page, if they’ve engaged with it, Instagram and all that, that’s one. Actually I’ve yeah, first hot buyers list uploads, then warm, warm as engagers.
That’s usually the range I’ll stay in. 80% of my ad spend is going to go to that 20% will go out to the colder. Now what’s colder? It’s not what you think. It’s not lookalikes. It’s keywords, but it’s warm keywords. I call them warm keywords. So for example, Russell Brunson, for me, that’s a warm keyword.
There’s a highly likely chance that if you are a Russell Brunson targeted person, you may or may not know me, but you know the topic. So when I go warm or I go lukewarm, so we call this lukewarm by the way, in the company. When I go lukewarm, I’m talking about people that are warm to the topic, maybe not me.
So what I do is I spend my 20% of my budget in the lukewarm. Why? Because I’m using that to continue building my warm. Right? So with every promotion, my audiences are growing so that my next promotion gets bigger and my next promotion gets bigger. My next promotion gets bigger. Now, when we do evergreen, it’s completely different ball game.
We go after lookalikes cold goal everywhere because whatever. Data will tell you if it’s working or not, and you can make adjustments within a matter of a few days. But when I’m going to go blitz spend and you know, I my record right now is I spent $150,000 on a webinar before even doing the webinar.
You know, that’s the big money. And so if I’m going to do that, then I’m going to do it to the warmest audiences. And when you have my insurance policies in place and really know what I’m doing or how I’m doing it, but yeah it’s the same with Facebook and same with YouTube.
And that’s the percentages that we spend and how we go and right now for me in the warm, yeah, we can do 150. We can blow 150 in the course of a week. Pretty quickly, actually pretty easily. Now that’s the other thing. If I’m doing a live webinar, I will launch my ads about 8, maybe 9 days before, but I use a bell curve, so really tiny budget.
Cause I don’t want to promote something 9 days before, 8 days before people forget. So it’s a bell curve. So I just start real salt. Why do I do that? I want to get the ads approved. We’ll get the pixel going and want to get the ad spent slowly scaling. Then I start to slowly go up every day and the bulk of my ad spend, like the big middle chunk is going to happen in that three, four.
Yeah, but the 4 days before the webinar and you spend most of it. So if we’re very strategic with it, I mean, we have our media buying team will have a spreadsheet. They know exactly how much they need to spend per day, how much they need to scale to so that we can make that bell curve work. But yeah, so that’s kind of how we do our ad strategy.
Joel Erway: [00:42:10]
That’s cool. That’s wild. So you do primarily paid ads then still, I mean like, obviously you’ll have your email list and your internal assets, but most of these webinars, if I understand correctly are from our firm paid.
Anik Singal: [00:42:25]
Joel Erway: [00:42:26]
Anik Singal: [00:42:26]
Most of them are from paid traffic. A lot of times when we do our emails, we’ll actually separate the email traffic out.
So we’ll do a separate webinar for the email list. And we’ll do a 3000 person webinar for paid traffic. See here’s how I look at it, Joel. It’s really simple. So if I’m paying I don’t know, 5 to $7. It depends on the offer. It depends like if I’m paying even let’s say 7, which is a little high, we typically won’t be paying that much with our warmed up audiences and everything, but let’s just say I’m paying 7 bucks a webinar registration to get 3000 on, on media buying.
So I’m going to tell you a show rate and most people will go, Oh, that’s a horrific show rate. Well, I’m media buying, right? Like it’s not my email list show rate.
My email list would show up sometimes at 28, 29, 30% nowadays, which is nuts for me at least. But my media buying, if I can get 15, I’m happy. If I get 18, I’m super happy for show rate. 18% is really good. 20% and I’m trying to figure out what the hell I did. Like how did I get to 20% show rate on ad buy?
So our standard rule is we always just say, Hey guys, we got to get 20,000 registrations, right? At 20,000 registrations, we know we’re a hundred percent going to have a maxed out room. That’s just we just know it. So sometimes less, sometimes a bit more. So about at seven bucks, which again, I don’t spend a typically it’s not that much, but it’s $140,000 in spend.
So you got to know your math though. You’ve got 3000 people on. Right? Reverse engineer that, but it’s not just that. So it’s 3000 people on for webinar one, then I can estimate about 1500, 12 to 1500 on for Encore one, then another 8 to 900 on for Encore two. Then my replace. And then I have something in my webinar funnels called extension, which I don’t see anyone else ever doing.
We extend that bad boy by another week. So what we do is we’ve reversed the PLF funnel. So PLF funnel’s a video one, video two sales video. We do webinar one, Encore one, Encore two, replay video one, video two sales page. So we stretched it out. And when you do the Excel file and do the math, I know 140,000 at the front sounds like holy crap.
You do the math. You’re like, Oh my God, I can’t like, I cannot lose on this. Right. As long as you have a converting offer. So that’s how we’ve been able to really go out and smash it. It’s just a matter of, yeah, it’s just media buying, knowing your numbers and, you know, going for it.
Joel Erway: [00:44:51]
So I know we’re running out of time here. We’re coming to the end of the show and there’s so much more that we could talk about. I’ve seen people, I’ve seen a couple of people do the reverse PLF on the back end of the webinar, and they say, it freaking kills it. We have not done it yet. We want to do it. We’re trying to scale up our high ticket courses.
Our high ticket courses offer right now. And that’s been something that we, it was on our plate like six months ago and I kept getting postponed, but it’s like, God want it. As soon as I heard you say it again, I’m like, Oh, I got to put it. We got to get the team back. Man, Anik, this was an amazing episode.
This is an amazing conversation. You shared tons and tons of knowledge. I’m excited to test the offer now, like I’m excited to test a one pay, two pay, because logically it makes sense in my brain. And I’ve wanted to, I just kind of wanted to get rid of the payment plan. That’s really where I wanted to change the offer.
Anik Singal: [00:45:49]
And you know what, Joel, here’s the crazy thing. The payment plan topic didn’t come up.
Joel Erway: [00:45:55]
Anik Singal: [00:45:55]
It’s so crazy. It was almost like a, because like you created this whole, like they forgot the guy that we had 1500 people on that webinar. I don’t think I saw a request for a payment plan.
Joel Erway: [00:46:07]
Anik Singal: [00:46:08]
And we didn’t do it yet. So yeah, it was interesting. Definitely something to be explored.
Joel Erway: [00:46:13]
For sure. Yep. We stopped doing, we didn’t put a payment plan on our most recent webinar. We scale, we raised the price, change the offer, and we ended up putting a payment plan on the second one, but we’re still getting majority of people taking the full pay, which is awesome.
Cause I’ve never been a payment plan fan, but it was kind of like the gold standard. It’s like, okay, you get the full pay or you get the payment plan and I’m like, there’s got to be something else that you can do. And that’s a brilliant spin on it. It’s a brilliant spin on it. So you and John, whoever’s going to Duke it out for credit for that, but brilliant.
Anik, man. I appreciate you, man. I appreciate you being open, honest. I mean, there’s not many people who are as transparent with their business, with their numbers as you are on. There are so many more questions that I could ask, but is there anything that you want to make sure that we got in before we wrap up the episode?
Anik Singal: [00:47:04]
No, man. Just glad to have been here. I hope people learn something. Hope they apply. If you do apply, let us know, let Joel or I know that you’ve did something, and it helped you and you made you money. And if you want to listen to some other cool strategies and marketing things that I’m up to and doing head over to my podcast, the Fighting Entrepreneur, and love to have you there.
Joel Erway: [00:47:22]
Sure. Let’s drop some more links. So the Fighting Entrepreneur is your podcast. Where else can they check out Lurn? Where can they check out more info about you?
Anik Singal: [00:47:30]
Yeah, sure. So if you want to check out our podcasts, you can go to anikpodcast.com. So, a n i k podcast.com Lurn is just l u r n .com.
It’s free to sign up and be a part of the community. And we’ve got lots of courses in there. Tons that are free by the way. All kinds of cool marketing and biz op, and just a lot of really neat stuff in there. And the community is really building up itself. So lurn.com. Last one I would tell you is if you find any of the copywriting and psychology side of what I talked about, I have a really cool 21 day challenge where I promise, and I’ve been delivering on this.
I can turn you into a better copywriter than 80% of the world in 21 days or less. So just if you want to join it, it’s 97 bucks. Check us out at copy, c o p y, in 21 .com. So copyin21.com. It’s a fun thing. We talk about my five step psychological formula for copywriting and a ton more. So there you go. So some URLs for everybody to check out.
Joel Erway: [00:48:23]
Awesome. We’ll make sure to include this in the show notes on. Anik, thanks again, man. If you enjoyed this episode, please reach out to Anik, hit him up on Facebook or join lurn or anywhere that you can connect with him. Let him know that you heard them on sold with webinars.
Just give him some love. Give him a big thank you. It’s an honor to have you, man. And we’ll see you guys all in the next episode. All right. Take care.